I think what is most damaging for Ukraine's historical reputation are things like the Lviv pogrom. Not welcoming Germans with flowers or serving in auxiliary units.
Also depends on which auxiliary units we're talking about. The Waffen-SS Galizien spent most of its time fighting the Red Army. Ukrainian "police" units (confusingly also bearing the Galizien name) were directly involved in multiple crimes against civilians. I wouldn't put them in the same category. Although to make things even more complicated, many from the police units were later recruited into the Galizien grenadier division to replace combat losses.
As for the Lviv Pogrom, it wasn't just Ukrainian nationalists who perpetrated it, but quite a few Polish ones too, which considering the ethnic makeup of Lviv at the time is hardly surprising.
I would also add that condemnation of hitler became more obvious after discovering the true nature of death camps.
But if their liberators were appaled and shocked of what they seen there it means they couldn't have the same knowledge about death camps that we have today.
So even more some Ukrainian villager who miracoulously survived Holodomor, couldn't know that those nicely dressed soldiers who chased away soviet mass murderers are mass murderers too.
That being said, it doesn't absolve this hypothetical Ukrainian from crimes he commited and it doesn't justify Ukrainians today celebrating him or lying to pretend this hypothetical Ukrainian never commited any crimes.
That's the biggest difference between how russians deal with their atrocities like Katyń (it is not true and it was Germans and polish officers deserve it also we can repeat, often in less than one hour) and Germans (we are ashamed, those were horrific crimes, we vow to make sure Never Again).
Both PL and Ukraine has some part of population that commited crimes during WW2. I believe we should acknowledge it happened and forcefully condemn them, they not represent what we strive to be today instead of trying to whitewash them or deny they happened.
I would add that I'm somewhat more understanding of Ukrainians having issues with condemning UPA than with my Polish compatriots' unwillingness to condemn, say, Brygada Świętokrzyska. UPA was the main Ukrainian resistance organization during WW2, so I can see why it is hard for some Ukrainians to admit that they were the baddies. In Poland the majority of resistance groups refused to collaborate with the Nazis, so if one chooses to glorify Polish collaborators, it's more than likely that they actually *like* ultranationalism/antisemitism/fascism.
UPA were not the baddies, this is much too strong statement. They were only sometimes the baddies and at least in few cases it is more than probable that it was done under NKVD inspiration. There is no black or white in this case.
There's a parallel to how Armia Krajowa was the main Polish resistance organization during WW2, and therefore any criticism of AK (for its occasional anti-Semitism, for pacifications of ethnic minorities) is not exactly popular even now.
It is automatically declined and assumed just impossible. And truth is: WW2 years in this part of the world were such a shit that there were no pure angels. Not a single one, on neither side.
Considering that the AK high command, for most part, didn't condone such behaviours, one might assume that condemning "bad apples"* would come easy. However, right wingers, including our soon-to-be-former government, appear to be actively seeking out the most rotten apples in order to put them up on the national pantheon.
*I'm aware that these weren't just a few isolated cases, but let's handle one shameful historical fact at a time
I was more thinking about situations where Poles helped Germans in killing Jews.
I think it is hard for Poles to acknowledge and condemn things like Jedwabne is because they are used as a cudgel to beat Poland, as wide brush to paint all Poles as antisemites and Jew-murderers.
Knee-jerk reaction is to oppose everything that is connected to such claim and the only effective, even if hard, response is to acknowledge it, point out that it was neither the norm, nor something we approve and show we definitely not condone antisemitism today.
"If you are interested in the mundane details: how do you starve to death people living on fertile farmlands, I recommend a great book by Anne Applebaum to you."
If you recommend a book, could you mention the title? :) (I can google for it, but many readers - especially those would benefit the most from reading it - may be too lazy.)
I think what is most damaging for Ukraine's historical reputation are things like the Lviv pogrom. Not welcoming Germans with flowers or serving in auxiliary units.
Also depends on which auxiliary units we're talking about. The Waffen-SS Galizien spent most of its time fighting the Red Army. Ukrainian "police" units (confusingly also bearing the Galizien name) were directly involved in multiple crimes against civilians. I wouldn't put them in the same category. Although to make things even more complicated, many from the police units were later recruited into the Galizien grenadier division to replace combat losses.
As for the Lviv Pogrom, it wasn't just Ukrainian nationalists who perpetrated it, but quite a few Polish ones too, which considering the ethnic makeup of Lviv at the time is hardly surprising.
Oh, another thing we Poles removed from our collective memory!
I would also add that condemnation of hitler became more obvious after discovering the true nature of death camps.
But if their liberators were appaled and shocked of what they seen there it means they couldn't have the same knowledge about death camps that we have today.
So even more some Ukrainian villager who miracoulously survived Holodomor, couldn't know that those nicely dressed soldiers who chased away soviet mass murderers are mass murderers too.
That being said, it doesn't absolve this hypothetical Ukrainian from crimes he commited and it doesn't justify Ukrainians today celebrating him or lying to pretend this hypothetical Ukrainian never commited any crimes.
That's the biggest difference between how russians deal with their atrocities like Katyń (it is not true and it was Germans and polish officers deserve it also we can repeat, often in less than one hour) and Germans (we are ashamed, those were horrific crimes, we vow to make sure Never Again).
Both PL and Ukraine has some part of population that commited crimes during WW2. I believe we should acknowledge it happened and forcefully condemn them, they not represent what we strive to be today instead of trying to whitewash them or deny they happened.
I would add that I'm somewhat more understanding of Ukrainians having issues with condemning UPA than with my Polish compatriots' unwillingness to condemn, say, Brygada Świętokrzyska. UPA was the main Ukrainian resistance organization during WW2, so I can see why it is hard for some Ukrainians to admit that they were the baddies. In Poland the majority of resistance groups refused to collaborate with the Nazis, so if one chooses to glorify Polish collaborators, it's more than likely that they actually *like* ultranationalism/antisemitism/fascism.
UPA were not the baddies, this is much too strong statement. They were only sometimes the baddies and at least in few cases it is more than probable that it was done under NKVD inspiration. There is no black or white in this case.
Fair point. Let me clarify, that I'm not talking about the post-war period and simplifying somewhat for the sake of brevity
especially when they were "involuntarily swept into tragedy where both sides suffered, but Poles started"
There's a parallel to how Armia Krajowa was the main Polish resistance organization during WW2, and therefore any criticism of AK (for its occasional anti-Semitism, for pacifications of ethnic minorities) is not exactly popular even now.
It is automatically declined and assumed just impossible. And truth is: WW2 years in this part of the world were such a shit that there were no pure angels. Not a single one, on neither side.
Considering that the AK high command, for most part, didn't condone such behaviours, one might assume that condemning "bad apples"* would come easy. However, right wingers, including our soon-to-be-former government, appear to be actively seeking out the most rotten apples in order to put them up on the national pantheon.
*I'm aware that these weren't just a few isolated cases, but let's handle one shameful historical fact at a time
I was more thinking about situations where Poles helped Germans in killing Jews.
I think it is hard for Poles to acknowledge and condemn things like Jedwabne is because they are used as a cudgel to beat Poland, as wide brush to paint all Poles as antisemites and Jew-murderers.
Knee-jerk reaction is to oppose everything that is connected to such claim and the only effective, even if hard, response is to acknowledge it, point out that it was neither the norm, nor something we approve and show we definitely not condone antisemitism today.
Oh f^ck....
"If you are interested in the mundane details: how do you starve to death people living on fertile farmlands, I recommend a great book by Anne Applebaum to you."
If you recommend a book, could you mention the title? :) (I can google for it, but many readers - especially those would benefit the most from reading it - may be too lazy.)
I guess there are a few possibilities, so that a question might be, of where to begin.
https://www.anneapplebaum.com/books/
I presume it's "Red Famine".
Indeed! Sorry!
Ooops! I forgot to put the link...
broken heart emoji